Skeptic Project

There was a conversation on the Facebook group about Skepchick and how everyone wants to rape her, and it was derailed by some total nut who claimed that I'm a rapist, murderer, and a psychopath because I'm not a vegan.

You can view a screen shot of the conversation, or just read it below. I indented what he said, and my responses follow the margin.

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She's a smug bitch who isn't really any different than a radical animal rights person.

‎@Roxette: As a radical animal rights person I can guarantee you that she's a lot diffrent from me.

I don't know, veganism and animal rights are pretty stupid ideological concepts Clawed.

I hope at least you don't buy into organic farming crap, but I have a feeling...

Maybe you only know the concepts promoted by Singer ans PeTA. Sadly they ofter are quite stupid. But PeTA is not the animal rights movement (actually they are not even a part of it since they do only welfare, ich hurts the animal rights movement ).
There is nothing stupid about basic ethics. You won't find any relevant difference between nonhuman animals and humans that would justify the rape and murder of countless nonhuman animals.
What's stupid about the writings of Gary L. Francione?

organic farming is not vegan at all. but the local farm where I get my veggies happens to be organic. they deliver near to my house so delivery routes are actually very short.
also you can't just assume that "organic" in my country is crap as it is in yours. we have many labels, some are ok, others are obviously just about marketing (plastic wrapped organic vegetables). "Demeter" is against many modern techniques so they cost a lot more and they don't care about science, they still promote homeopathy.
One important benefit is that only organic processed food has to list all (well... most) ingredients. That's obviously helpful as a vegan but don't you want to know what's in there?!

‎"You won't find any relevant difference between nonhuman animals and humans that would justify the rape and murder of countless nonhuman animals. "

Rape? Murder? To be honest I think the main difference is no scientific basis for consciousness in animals other than humans, especially not in cows, chickens, pigs, etc. Not to mention the fact humans and other primates consume meat through evolutionary biology. So is it rape and murder when a lion kills a gazelle?

I'm not sure what country you live in, but many other countries mandate a complete ingredient list for all processed foods, not just organic processed food.

Rape: Cows and other animals get raped so they produce milk.
Murder: Even hens and cows get murdered when they dont produce enough milk anymore.

Survival of the fittest? So you are a social darwinist?!
So I guess you wouldn't mid if you get raped since thats just evolutionary biology... and we are back on topic!

There is enough scientific prove that animals can suffer and that's all that matters. You must be a real psychopath to think that animals like cows and pigs to not suffer when they get raped and murdered. This is nothing but dogma to say that nonhumans have no rights. you have no reason to abuse them and treat them as property.

I doubt that any country actually mandates this (except maybe for such as Isreal to make sure they are kosher or whatever).

Do you have any idea how many ingredients are needed for processed food? It's not just the main ingerients, I'm takling about additives, many of them are not even in the final product such as gelatin. Or just traces that don't need to be listed. And what about synthesized stuff? it always is made of something else that is synthesised. You don't know what it is they use.
Same thing with animal products. They need to eat. What do they eat? Mostly soy and corn. Where does it come from? They can import it from anywhere, feed it to animals and then sell the corpses as a local product. But I guess you don't care.

Your argument is the same as that of a racist or a sexist. This is called speciesism.

See your reply Clawed, that's what I meant when I said "ideological." You don't care about science or anything else, you'll say anything including using weasel words like "rape" and "murder" to get your point across.

Using hormones and other methods to produce milk in cows is rape? That's interesting, I guess the same kind of medication that women use to help breasts produce milk is also rape? Are babies raping mothers because babies need milk?

Killing animals isn't murder. You said that humans and animals are essentially the same, so if it is murder, that means lions murder gazelles and should be held responsible for it.

I never said survival of the fittest, in fact that's not Darwinism at all, it's survival of the best adapted. Speaking of, was it soy and corn that Neolithic humans were eating as a primary part of their diet? No, they were committing genocide against the poor animals =(.

If you really think it's rape and murder, it's obvious this is your religion, and science comes last for you.

You just said there's no difference between nonhuman animals and humans, so apparently the difference is now in ethics? Why? If we're both animals we should do what comes naturally.

If you've eaten meat before, but no longer do, are you still a rapist and murderer? If not, how is this different than someone who rapes and murders another human being? If that is different, again is that suggesting also that humans and animals are actually different, are they really not different?

Sure animals can suffer, and of course since animal liberation/rights is your religion, you'll assume the absolutist belief that if I don't agree with you I want to torture animals, that's not true. I think free range cattle is a great idea, I think animals should be treated right, and then we kill them and eat them, why not?

Animals do have some rights, and the right not to suffer is one of them, and since humans and animals are the same to you, and humans evolved with meat as a primary part of their diet, it's wrong to say humans can't eat meat. And animals are property, I own a cat, it's my cat. You said you don't agree with PeTA but you're already speaking like a drone of Ingrid Newkirk.

"I doubt that any country actually mandates this"

Uh, okay... I can think of two countries I've lived in, off the top of my head that do include it: United States and Russia, and Russia even includes percentages of each ingredient.

I don't really give a damn how many ingredients are needed for processed food, considering having more ingredients doesn't automatically make something bad. Tofu is heavily processed, beyond many other things, so it must be bad too.

I don't care about what sort of additives there are either, since you clearly believe "chemicals" and so forth are bad, there's no arguing with you here, it's another part of your religion.

It's weird that you think it's wrong that animals are fed soy and corn, considering that's what you seem to think everyone else should replace meat with.

Yes, I am a speciesist, I think human beings are more important than all the other animals on the planet combined. I'd gladly kill my cat in cold blood to save the life of a dying person I've never met. That's because unlike you, animals aren't my gods, they're just animals.

Bio-medical science also requires testing on animals, though testing things like make-up is obviously debatable, it's important for human health that animals be used as test subjects, I assume you think this is wrong, immoral, and/or you even believe the ideological point that animal testing is unscientific and irrelevant to humans.

Good [luck] with your blind faith of animal liberation, praise the animals, fuck people in their stupid non-animal asses.

haha, yeah right. As if chemists do a test of all products...
Are you living under a rock? how are all the food scandals possible?!
And I'm not talking about health issues at all. Until now this was not about health in any way.
Studies have shown that people who are more aware of their food are healthier. it's not actually about the "diet" (they are mostly useless, often even scams if you will). It's more about the "lifestyle".
also movies as" supersize me" (didn't actually see it) are often misleading, since people then just replace that junk food with other junk, since they are not properly educated.

it seems to me we have only two kinds of people:
1: CTs who see a conspiracy in everything. Every one else is Crazy!!!
2: People who always think the experts do everything right and we don't need to question anything. Every one else is Crazy!!!
We will soon have a big problem. All think they are skeptics but none of them really are. They are actually one group of uneducated people.

So go on! Eat your junk! Justify everything with some humanshit theory about social darwinism. All is OK! Nothing to worry. Carry on.

A true skeptic is always skeptical. Even about Skepticism.
The more I read here the more I get skeptical. So I guess this group really works ;-)

Let me guess you think Monsanto is an evil corporation out to destroy humanity?

In the United States any product, except organic food, has to be thoroughly tested to allow human consumption. Perhaps your "food scandals" aren't what you think they are, perhaps you think that suicide seeds a scandals, or maybe you believe all the bullshit about "frankenfoods" and you praise Greenpeace for breaking into places and chopping down GM plants because they're poisoning the environment.

You're obviously a die-hard ideologue, and that means you've suspended disbelief, you clearly believe in animal liberation and all that stupid crap, so there's no room for you to be skeptical about it.

about weasel words: they are just dysphemisms (opposite of euphemisms) - my english is not perfect so it's hard for me to explain properly. I just call it what it is. They enter a cows vagina to impregnate her. That is rape. It's actually very simple.
about murder: Tucholstky said soldiers are murderers. I say nonvegans are murderers. See the analogy? It's not true by definition (in law) but I use it to say that its not just killing, its wrong. therefore I use the word murder.

I did NOT say humans are the "same" as other animals. If you think lions should be held responsible then *you* say your the same. But you dont do that. So you sayyou are diffrent? Maybe even "better" in some sorts? Then why do you behave like a "wild animal" by killing other animals?! You behave like the lion and you do not want to take more responsibility. by that you actually want to be the same. If you want that, fine. But then you get no human rights. You cant have both!

You are a hypocrite for stating that animals should have some rights but they can be murdered. That equals no rights. Slaves had rights too but whats the point if they had no right for freedom?

Animal rights is not a religion. If so it would mean that the abolitionsists movement was a religion too. then everything that anyone fights for is a religion. even science is a religion.

About animal testing: I donated some of my colon-cells (whatever they are called) because I have Crohns desease. So they do "animal testing" on me. I'm all for science!

‎"You won't find any relevant difference between nonhuman animals and humans"

I never said animals should have the same rights, I said they have *some* rights, very limited ones, because they're animals and because we eat them. You're being absolutist again, it's all your way or it's wrong, and that's not how the real world works, Clawed. If ethics and morality were absolutist, then there should be no prisons or insane asylums.

Comparing human slavery to animal consumption/farming is another ideological talking point that suggests that humans and animals are the same, and not only that but it trivializes human slavery, which still exists. I don't give a damn about someone making their dog or cat stay inside their house, but doing the same to an individual human is wrong.

Stop trivializing humanity with your animal elitist talking points. You suggest on one hand that humans and animals are the same, then you suggest that humans and animals aren't the same, then you keep trivializing things like murder, rape, and slavery of human beings by suggesting what happens to animals is even remotely close to it.

I suggest you talk to a family member of a murder victim, a person that's been raped, and a person that's been sold into human trafficking and tell them what happens to animals is equal to what has happened to them or someone they care about. See I can appeal to emotion too.

Again you compare yourself to the slave abolitionists? Give me a break, you're nothing at all like those people, and animals are nothing like real slaves.

It is a religion because it suspends disbelief, it considers outsiders to be bad or doing bad things, and it creates absolutism in every one of its beliefs.

I'm not a fan of Monsanto. It's a corporation, thats all. I don't like what they do but I understand that many of the information about that company could be wrong since it could be made up by CTs.

I'm also not a fan of Greenpeace. It's a corporation, thats all. I don't like what they do but I understand that many of the information about that company could be wrong since it could be made up by CTs.

I was in the USA in 1995 and it was bad then how there was junk food everywhere. it's not just that it exists. I understand that sometimes you want to eat something like that, i do it too. There is a lot of vegan convenience food, and it's probably not more healthy.
but it was everywhere. many people dont cook, they dont even go to real restaurants. they get it delivered. the food in restaurants was often even worse that "McDonalds". I was not vegan back then, so it can't be my "religion" as you call it that meda me think that this was wrong. it was simply shocking. but of course if you know how to get good food you can cook yourself or find some nice restaurants. the problem is that the uneducated people are mostly the victims.

I'm still very skeptical. but there are some basic ethical principles that don't really need science.
Murder is bad. There are exceptions like when someone wants to die where it could be ok (and would not be called "murder"). But basically it's genuinely bad. This can be shown with philosophy. If you disagree I'm afraid that you are a psycopath. Maybe thats not science, so I guess it's just my opinion or whatever you would call it.

If someone disagrees with you, you can't just say that he has a religion and or ideology while you base everything on science.
Are ethics relevant to you? On what are they based? On science? Is philosophy a science? Is there any philosophical excuse to kill animals for food?

Now I know who you remind me of. GlaDOS from Portal, the Computer Game by Valve.

I don't care about animal testing, the victims are too few compared with those for food. No that they don't matter at all but it would be ridiculous to compare maybe some millions(?) of animals per year with 54 billion animals for food worldwide.
It's even bad for the environment (based on science) and ADA says it's just as healthy. then it uses less water and doesn't destroy as many land so its better fur humans. But most importantly it's the only way to not murder those billions of animals.
what good reason do you have to not be vegan? I simply ask you.

I don't say God wants you to be vegan. And it's not about me wanting you to be vegan (although I do). It's about the billions of animals that get murdered for no good reason. It's your decision.
You have the freedom to say that you don't care and go on murdering those animals. But at least don't be a hypocrite about it.

One last question: Isn't religion in a way the result of biological evolution? how could it not be? don't you want humans to overcome that? why not overcome the speciesism too? why not live in a world in which humans do not murder. without exceptions.
many religions have some kind of "do not murder"-commandment but then the rest of the text is mostly about the exceptions.
I don't want religion. I just don't want to murder.
I also embrace honesty. Without being religions and with the knowing that there is often need to be dishonest.
I could go on with this list, you get the point.

How can you be against religion when you cant offer anything but "science". No wonder people think athism will end in anarchy.
Right now I cant see any way to educate all humans that they could life without any morals. But morals cant work it they are arbitrary.
Nonvegan morals are double standard.

So, now I will go outside and have some fun even though science could never prove that it's fun to be outside.
How could they if they cant even prove that cows are sad when their calve is taken away right after birth :-(

Keep up the scepticism! I have to say it's a lot more pleasant to discuss here than with CTs. Your a raping, murdering psychopath - but at least not as stupid as others. It's so crazy how this is less frustrating than talking to those who can't comprehend that "but I only buy organic meat" is just a moronic statement. :-/

‎"because we eat them"
Now that's a great argument!!! Can you base this on science?!

morality cant be absolute. at least not what i understand of morals.
ethics is moral philosophy. it tries to be as absolute as it can be, doesn't it. if not: then science is not absolute.

animal liberations is not about someone "making their dog or cat stay inside their house". It's about the murder of billions of animals (not counting fishes and other marine animals) per year.

You are trivializing as much as I do. What is the objective view on this? How can you prove that you have it? You claim that human suffering is worse. thats you your point of view.

I don't want to appeal to emotion. But I don't think its possible not to.

I don't want to compare the murder of a human to the murder of an animal. it's not about comparison. it's just about that both are wrong.

I can't really say that I'm just like the abolitionists. But I guess i'd like to be like them. this is mostly to show that I'm against welfare.
You can read those quotes from the time:
http://tierrechtsforen.de/​rassismusspeziesismus
the comments are german but the quotes are english.
maybe you understand how the arguments are often the same and why we see an analogy.

What about human rights? Are "outsiders" not bad? then who is bad? Am I not allowed that someone is bad? Am I not allowed to have a set of ethical principles that I think are true until proven false?

What if I rape or murder you? Can I just tell everyone who complains that they are just religious ideologues. And that I'm not convinced that you have a consciousness because you are of a different race/sex/whatever...? Thats arbitrary.
And if you say no then thats just your own ideological viewpoint.

‎"quotes from the time" -> i meant quotes from the epoch/era (of slavery).

Something being a corporation doesn't automatically make it bad, whether it's Greanpeace or Monsanto.

I don't think anything is wrong with McDonald's, I eat it all the time, except I don't eat the fries or the bun on the burger. I'm probably the exact opposite of you, I follow the paleolithic diet (except I also eat diary).

I can't believe you think I'm a psychopath because I disagree with you. Unlike animals I have the ability to empathise with others, again you're being absolutist. That's a hallmark of a belief system, rather than something tangible.

People disagree with me all the time. Robert Dobbs thinks my politics are completely stupid and moronic, but I don't think he's an ideologue, because he doesn't compare himself to slave freers and me to murderers.

Is there any philosophical reason to actually consider yourself on par with slave abolitionists or calling people who eat animals murderers and people who drink milk rapists?

I'm not a video game character, I'm a person.

The best reason to not be vegan is that animal fat and meat is something humans have consumed for hundreds of thousands of years, and our closest relatives also consume it. Is it any wonder that if I eat vegan food I feel like shit, run down, tired and my blood sugar sky rockets, but if I eat meat I don't feel like that?

Stop trivializing human death by calling animal killing murder.

Again, I'm not a hypocrite because morals and ethics aren't absolute, maybe in your religion, but else where they aren't. Caring for animals doesn't mean becoming vegan, just as eating meat doesn't mean you enjoy tearing animals limb from limb like in some sort of horror show.

Religion is a result of human superstition and consciousness, it isn't a part of human survival. It was invented as a way to explain the natural world, but science now has replaced it as a way to explain the natural world.

I don't think you quite understand what science is, emotions don't effect the natural world in any way, they're just inside your mind. You could do observable trials to find out how many people like going outside, and consider that maybe most people like going outside and think its fun. Wow, science strikes again.

There's plenty out there to show that emotion in animals isn't what it is in humans, this is largely done with pesky science and its study of brains.

I find your calling me a murdering psychopath it be really disgusting and your hatred of humanity is really sad and immoral.

Yes, I can base it on science. Most people eat meat, most people enjoy eating meat, and humans have lived with meat consumption science before modern humans even existed. If humans were meant to be herbivores, then we would be, we wouldn't have evolved with meat as our primary staple. That's a little archeology and biology put together in that one.

You say morality can't be absolute, but time and time again you've stated things like animals are slaves and therefore you're just like abolitionists.

Don't compare animal rights to human rights.

Astounding.

I think he's a bit butthurt.

I'm going to go drink a tall glass of rape juice.

I don't agree with your arguments completely Rox but I do think that guy is definitely ridiculous. Calling eating meat murder and rape is incredibly insulting to people that have suffered these things for real. Kind of like how feminists can throw around the word rape, making it meaningless.

"Kind of like how feminists can throw around the word rape, making it meaningless."

yep, all feminists say that consensual sex is rape. all of them.

Anything that Bobbie doesn't like or understand is stinky

I read that vegan diets kill more animals than meat eating diets. Just smaller animals.

http://jyte.com/cl/vegetarian-diets-kill-more-animals-than-diets-based-on-beef-lamb-and-dairy</p>

But fuck those mice. I want my corn and wheat!

@Vasper85 hahaha I'm going to show that article to all the vegans I know now!

"Yeah food chain"

^this. But don't tell a vegan that, I think some of them believe that nature exists in perfect harmony and animals never, ever hurt each other.